Countime wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:54 am
In the real world they do not allow different catagories to draft off each other.
That's not my experience at all. Categories mix all the time.
IRL we have all different start times with the faster ones going first, if we can just get 30sec between groups we will see different tactics. Yes you will be able to draft of the fast guys if they get dropped but that won't improve your time that much.
domj039 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:45 am
Countime wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:35 pm
I think we just need a B+ and C+ catagory like they did with the A’s
And then once we've all adapted to that and I'm frustrated that I'm being pushed into B but can't compete do I then get a B- category as well?

Check out Mark Roberts' post on Zwift Racers FB about why KISS have moved to a blanket E category in their races: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ZwiftRa ... 616336912/

Some good points made in a long but worthwhile post. Most relevant sections quoted below (without permission):

If we engage in a little reductio ad absurdum we'll see how daft W/kg categories for racing are... In the interests of fairness anyone who holds 4.0+ races in the A category so the riders who can just about get to 4.0 have a chance of winning the B category. But 3.2 - 4.0 is quite a wide range of performance, so shouldn't we split that in two because right now the people at 3.5 have no chance of winning? And then maybe we should take our new B+ category of 3.6 - 4.0 and split that because the riders at 3.8 still have no chance of winning. And we keep going and going and going. Eventually everyone gets their own category. Everyone gets to win.

tl;dr

If you throw away ABCD and everyone races everyone else all of that goes away (although I accept it might bring problems I've not thought of). So you used to finish near the front of the D category, but now you're down in 90th place? Maybe ZwiftPower used to show you as D-1, but now it shows you as U-90? So what? Really? Ultimately it means exactly the same thing. You're still finishing in the same ***absolute*** position you always were. ***Nothing*** has changed in that regard. Those A, B, and C riders were always ahead of you before. They still are. The only difference is we no longer have some arbitrary banding that creates the *illusion* of you finishing in a higher position.
I have done these races. Personally I like to race in whatever my catagory is. I dont want other categories overlapping. The problem with no categories is the feeling of competativeness is not there when racing. I like to know, do I chase that guy down or not?
Stu_P wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:47 am
Countime wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:54 am
One thing that would help fairness in all races without changing catagories is this.
Dont allow riders to get draft benefit from someone that is not in their catagory.
Example. If u in a b race with the main group and the A’ s going flying by the top b’s will jump on thus creating a disparity in the B grp. In the real world they do not allow different catagories to draft off each other. Im guessing in zwift they did this at first because there was not enough riders and it helped the “social” aspect. But now we are past that. Yes there are some races where the faster gros go first and thus that helps but really just remove the draft effect and then it does not matter when u start. The b’ c’ etc will then stay within their own group as it should be.
Interesting idea. Personally I try to stick onto a higher category group for as long as I can, getting as much of a draft advantage as I can. If no one could adopt that tactic it'd be a totally different (arguably more interesting) race.
I do the same thing as I think most do when in a race a bit above their level. People always say on here "Race in the higher category it will make you faster' I don't believe that because. When I do a race in the B category, I struggle to stay with the lead B group. Then I get dropped 5, 10 min into the ride and now im just coasting along waiting for the next B group to pick me up. Likely I get dropped again and then finally im back with the B/C group and finish the race with them. If I start with a C group, I have the ability to do "Pulls and take my heart rate up high" then dropped back recover and do this again" In the B groups, its just a struggle and then coasting along waiting that does not make me faster or stronger.
Cjostberg wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:43 pm
Countime wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:54 am
In the real world they do not allow different catagories to draft off each other.
That's not my experience at all. Categories mix all the time.
Here in Texas different categories might start together then its ok. But once a race is going, there is a lead car and normally a car or motorcycle in the back. If our group encounters some stragglers from the previous race they are not aloud to jump on with us and ride with us. We pass them and they must stay behind us etc. I think recently in europe a female was stopped in her race because she had caught up the the guys in front of her and she was not aloud to ride with them.
Countime wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:02 pm
Cjostberg wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:43 pm
Countime wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:54 am
In the real world they do not allow different catagories to draft off each other.
That's not my experience at all. Categories mix all the time.
Here in Texas different categories might start together then its ok. But once a race is going, there is a lead car and normally a car or motorcycle in the back. If our group encounters some stragglers from the previous race they are not aloud to jump on with us and ride with us. We pass them and they must stay behind us etc. I think recently in europe a female was stopped in her race because she had caught up the the guys in front of her and she was not aloud to ride with them.
You don't have CAT 5/4 races or CAT 3/2/1 races where everyone is together?

In MTB races it's the same way, different categories have different starts, but you're welcome to latch on to faster groups. Same in gravel racing.
Yes like i said if the groups start together they can draft etc. but if cat 4/5 starts at 11am and cat 3 starts at 1110am The cat 4/5 cannot jump on the cat 3 race if they pass etc
Countime wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:57 am
Yes like i said if the groups start together they can draft etc. but if cat 4/5 starts at 11am and cat 3 starts at 1110am The cat 4/5 cannot jump on the cat 3 race if they pass etc
That's not entirely different from Zwift racing.

A legitimate Cat D podium guy is not going to mix it up with the A's and B's no matter how strong he is. If he does, he'll break out of category every time.

But a strong B can mix it up with the A's and still be within B category, much like a Cat 3 can play with Cat 1's in the same race.
At this point A,B,C,D start at the same time so a D can hang with the A's at the start if he has a good 5min power and that will help him get away and settle into a faster group. this makes the start unreasonable for B,C and D groups.


If we have groups starting in different intervals we will eliminate that, if the C's do catch some of the slower B's then it is ok, because the C's made up time and proved that they are faster/stronger than the B's that got dropped.